Sunday, September 14, 2008

Sunday 26.5 miles. Week total: 114

am) 26.5 miles in 2:54.
When I left triathlon and started just running I sensed a sort of lack of respect from runners for triathletes. Maybe I was just paranoid? Something about triathletes seems to rub runners the wrong way. This morning I sort of understood maybe why runners feel that way? I ran with a triathlete- Jeff Keil- as he is nearing his last several weeks before the Hawaii Ironman. Jeff biked something like 115 miles yesterday and did it in just over 5:00. After the bike he immediately ran 5 miles, holding back and running easy at 6:20 pace. Today I joined him for a 3:00 run on a hilly course. I expected him to be tired, which he was. I expected to have to "go easy" on him, I am after all a runner and we were running.... I didn't. We clicked off 26.5 miles in 2:54 and he barely broke a sweat. In fact I had to keep telling him to 'relax' as our pace would creep down, not the expected up. Even though I used to be like him- back in the day when I walked uphill both ways to Masters in knee deep snow with out shoes and ate dirt because energy gels weren't invented yet- I kept looking at this guy and getting annoyed. Annoyed at the thought that here I am, a runner who is supposed to do this, and this guy can hold 1:15 pace in the pool for 5k, then bike 100+ miles at 22 mph, and now is running 6:30 pace at mile 23 while chatting with me. Is that right? I'm glad I'm not a pro racing Kona this year. Jeff is the kind of guy that makes pros look bad. I always hated getting beat by age-groupers when I was a proffesional. Damn you Jeff. ;)
And huge thanks to Jenni Keil for riding support for us and listening to two guys in a glycogen depleted nether world thinking we were being funny. Everything is funny when you're brain isn't working.

28 comments:

Der Kaiser said...

Maybe:
Talented guys choose triathlon over running as white guys have slim chances competing against Africans. See, I was a stud today beating 3,000+ runners. However, there are enough triathletes out there that could have made me look bad. Runners nowadays seem to believe they are that good. Few consider that it actually is the competition that is weak.

The German OD studs have beaten some of the best 10k runners in the country. The current 10k national champ is an ex-triathlete. But the winning time was 29:14!

It is not the triathletes that are good, it is the runners that are slow.

Lucho said...

Nice point. I just don't think you can compare a pure runner against a triathlete- which is often done by runners. Runners see a OD guy running 31:20 in a tri and they think they suck. I remember a thread on letsrun (aka: letshate)about Simon Whitfield- the runners were bagging on him for being overrated. The guy has run low 29's for 10k. And of course that isn't Bekele or Geb range.. but Simon can swim 17:00 for a 1500 and ride 28 mph for 40k. You just can't compare. I see the same thing with runners hating on Lance for trying to be a runner.
As an ex-triathlete I would give anything to run a 29:14!!

Matt said...

Tim,
but isn't that the exception, that tri guys are more talented, i.e., faster on their feet than runners? Jeff Kiel and James Walsh are great amateurs/exceptions. . .err . . .sandbaggers! I have this feeling and I've heard others sorta reinforce it that most of the tri nation is drinkin' the mediocrity cool aid.

Those ITU guys (ala Whitfield) may be the sickest/quickest guys anywhere, but tri guys in general are faster than runners?

Sweeping generalization. . .

Lucho said...

Matt- If we were talking right now you would hear that my tone is in no way sarcastic or belligerent.. seriously!
"most of the tri nation is drinkin' the mediocrity cool aid."
Have you ever run a 2:55 marathon after biking 112 miles in 4:50 and swam 2.4 miles in 56:00 all in a row in 100 degree heat with 30mph winds? Those were my best splits at Kona and that didn't even put me in the top 10. Most of the haters on triathletes are mediocre runners themselves (at best) and probably couldn't do a single one of the 3 disciplines that fast.
My point is that it's a different sport! That's like an NFL receiver saying that Ryan Hall's marathon pace is mediocre. They both run and are excellent at what they do. Most runners who bag on triathletes have never done a triathlon so it's an ignorant and uneducated statement. Ya, a 2:35 marathon (the best in an Ironman by someone who won) is mediocre... if you're running a marathon! But Ironman is not marathoning. And as Uli said- the guy who ran that split was making half a million dollars a year as an Ironman athlete- if he was a marathoner he would be... well, ME! He chose the sport that he was best at. Whitfield has an Olympic gold AND silver plus is going to be able to retire comfortably off the sport, far more than he would have as a 10k runner getting 15th against the Africans. You pick your battles and you do what gives you the best chance at success. Most of the great triathletes would be failures as 'elite' runners, ask any one of them! They never rip on Geb for his inability bike fast. Or on Hall for swimming like a rock fish. It's just stupid to hate on people that are doing what they love. Peace and love man! Why can't we all just get along?
Anyway, seriously- I'm not cussing you out- just rambling aggressively ;).
How is your running coming? I haven't heard from you in a while.
T

Matt said...

I did 20 today, climbed over 4500ft., hovering around 5500ft. elevation. We have mountains in SD county! I've made some connections with a few ultra folk, so I'm training with them (and gapping them going easy! - I sure hope they never read that!!!! but it's true:-). I feel strong, Lucho. You're the man. I will return to the fold. I'm just out sowin' my oats on this little I-don't-know-what-you-call-it.

BTW, I was talking mainly about age-groupers re: the mediocrity cool aid (Kiel and Walsh being the exceptions . . .. er SANDBAGGERS).

I have nothing but love for the triathlete . .I've floundered through a few of them (inc. 2 1/2 IM). It's very very tough. Mucho respecto.

I'm doing a 50k in Vegas in Oct. I'm missing you by 2 months!

When's the TL Run Camp? Get it together, man!!!!

Lucho said...

Nice that you're running easy and gapping people. That's something!
My wife and I are putting our house on the market and hope to be in new digs soon. I would welcome you out here anytime it works for you- we have zero extra space right now though. The run camp will happen- although I don't want it to be a 'true' training camp. Rather- a camp around a fire in the desert with good company, laughs, and plenty of beer and wine.. oh ya- and running. Can't forget that! Lot's and lot's of running. Maybe in the Spring when the desert isn't frozen at night?
Jeff ran a 1:48 800 meter in college- so maybe he is a sandbagger! That's 1" off Olympic trials qualifying.
Nice run today- that's a lot of climbing for sure! Should be good for the 50k.
T

Der Kaiser said...

Lucho
Fantastic! This is my sort of camp. Plllleeeease let me sign up!
uli

GZ said...

Jeff is the incredible hulk.

I don't understand the tri folk runner thing. Then again, I don't understand the trail runner - road runner - track runner thing. It is all running. It is all endurance. It is all of us trying to be better ...

I am sorry that some of your early exposure to runners was via Letsrun. I like to think most of us are not like that.

Lucho said...

Absolutely Uli.

Lucho said...

Ya- I really need to let that whole letsrun thing go. It was a bad way to start! And I see all of the great people in the sport, the community on the blog-o-sphere and I see how much I do love being a runner and being part of it all.
Funny point- I don't understand anyone either... runners, triathletes.. were all the same. One simply has more gear and shaves their legs.

C Brad Poppele said...

Just curious why run 26.5 miles? Are you training for a ultra? Most marathon plans only call for your long run to be around 20-22 miles. Do you go by time on your feet and not look at the miles too much? I plan on doing a 50k trail run this year what do you think I should do for my long run and should I do back to back days with long runs? Thanks!

Justin Mock said...

Any thoughts on what Jeff would run a marathon in, if trained specifically for it? Sub 2:30 I'd guess?

GZ said...

Brad ... I know your question is directed to Tim, but I will weigh in if I may be so rude ...

There is little dispute in the need for a long run in prep for a marathon. Generally, most programs will call for some run of 20 miles or more in prep for a marathon. There are programs out there (like the Hanson consistent moderate program) that will call for "only" a 16 mile run. Don't be fooled however: a shorter long run is made up for with workouts elsewhere.

My take: you need to determine what your long run will be to prep for a marathon or a 50k based on what volume you currently handle, the intensity at which you do this long run, the ability for you to recover from this long run, your other workouts, and what mental confidence you will gain from this long run.

I'd turn it around and ask - what has been your longest run (and in your case, prepping for Pikes, that might be a time run versus miles), what does the rest of your week look like in terms of volume and intensity, how hard will you run your long run, etc.

That said ... 31 miles. Just kidding.

Lucho said...

GZ- I thought you were messing with me.. I'm kind of slow sometimes.
CBrad- I had originally planned on 20 miles today but Jeff was running around 3:00 (close to his time goal at Kona)so I thought I would keep him company. I asked Jeff at one point how far we had gone (he had his GPS) and he said 26.5 so I suggested we stop and walk the last few hundred meters otherwise we would have gotten 27 miles pretty simply in under 3:00. That is a bit far- but I don't think all the rules apply to all athletes. Neither Jeff nor I have any issues with injuries or doing big training days- so running 26 isn't that big of a deal. When I will be trying to run faster during my long runs they will certainly be in the 20-22 mile range. I have always thought time was a better way to measure as it takes fatigue in to account and it also allows for a slightly more accurate reference for all types of runners. Ie: A 15 mile run to me is different for another runner... but a 1:40 run is more similar for us both. That theory is not perfect but it helps a bit. I also think runners need to run up to their goal race time at least once, but as much as possible. And race distance if they are durable and fit. The fatigue that you feel at mile (in your case)29 is not something you can mimic. I think you need to understand what the discomfort of the mileage is going to be like. You also need to know how your shoes and socks are going to feel on your feet, how your stomach digests fluid and nutrition.. etc.. Being as prepared as possible in all aspects is a good thing. I don't think a 50k is significant enough to depart too far from a marathon schedule- but bumping to 23-25 miles might be a good idea. Back to back long days as long as they are each ~20 miles would work too.
T

Lucho said...

Ya- and what GZ said! That was a better explanation.
Justin- My first experience with Jeff was coaching him for the Phoenix Marathon (in 2002). He wanted to run it as base training in preparation for a jump to 1/2 Ironman training (he had just done sprints and olympics until then). Off of his very short and intense training schedule I spent ~10 weeks working with him on building volume (I think he built to running ~60-70 miles a week?) and he ran a 2:40. The guy has far more 'talent' than I ever had as a runner. He would easily be <2:30 in a short period of time. Beyond that? He works hard and does things with his whole heart... he doesn't F**k around. If he wanted to I'm sure he could run well below 2:30. He's a 1:48 800 meter guy! And although that isn't a perfect predictor of the marathon- it is something to consider in terms of his abilities to move his legs.

C Brad Poppele said...

Thanks Tim & GZ for your input.
I also believe time on feet can be a better gauge than miles. If you want to run a 3 hour marathon you should do at least one run of that length of time so your body knows how to handle that.
GZ my longest run for Pikes was only around 14 miles but it was at incline on the treadmill and time on my feet was almost 3 hours. I did some longer runs but they were on roads and took less time. Looking back on my training I should have done a longer run time wise for Pikes since the marathon took me much longer than 3 hours.
Thanks again guys.
Brad

BRFOOT said...

It's not just the "runners" that have the triathlete penis envey. Have you ever spent much time with a group of roadies, and I know you have. Those guys/girls are the biggest trihaters. Not only do they think their shit don't stink but they bitch about aerobars and seat mounted water bottles. I think the only people that pure roadies hate more than triathletes are mountain bikers. They talk talk about them like they're the red headed retarded cousin nobody wants around.
And eventhough I don't know Kiel at all. It's obvious the guy could be a badass at any one of the 3 sports if he choose to focus on just one.

Lucho said...

Brfoot- I forgot about the roadies. You're right. We used to do a Wednesday group ride of 30 miles that was a whos who of the current Boulder bad-ass triathletes. Simon Lessing, Wes Hobson, Lovato, Matt Reed, Brian Rhodes, Cam Brown, Raynard Tissink, Luke Bell. We rode it one time in under 1 hour. I saw my HR at 198 once during that damn thing... anyway- there was a group of Cat 1 roadies that used to show up. And although they never bitched about us, it was always fun to make them suffer. When Simon Lessing was on it was agony! He could hold 32 mph on the front forever. I think in Boulder there are enough uber-cyclist triathletes to command a little respect. I've seen Tyler Hamilton, many (formerly)US Postal riders and a slew of Euro guys riding and they all seem cool. Same with the elite runners. I think the 'hate' mentality stems from an insecurity in the persons own talents. Most of the guys that hate triathletes are the ones most apt to sit on your wheel.
I don't get the whole hating on the MT bikers though? Those guys are tough hombres.

BRFOOT said...

Word on the mtn bikers. And no matter your skill level most mtn bikers are welcoming and very helpful to newcomers. They will point and laugh though if you eat shit over the handlebars, but that's fair.

Lucho said...

I remember Lance raced an off road duathlon one year- a pro mountain biker was racing it and Lance crushed the guy on the first run. The pro MT biker led off the bike though having put several minutes in to Lance. Lance (of course) won though with a great second run. This was in 2002 (?) when Lance was in his best shape. Mountain bikers (and MT biking) would be my first choice in the 2 wheel deal.

Matt said...

Apparently, that Leadville 100 mtb race he just did fired him up for the big comeback. The prejudice we're all talking about surrounds us. "My (sub)culture is better than yours." It's natural for people to behave this way: "You're different from me - you're out!"

I think Brfoot is right about the roadie/tri feud. That thing is real.

JK1 said...

you guys are funny.

to answer some of the questions- I'm sure some people (triathletes) look at yesterday and think it's dumb- BUT- I wasn't shooting to run 26.5 miles, it just happened to be the distance- we were shooting for time only- plus, the course wasn't easy and although the weather was cool- it was similar yet harder in some ways than Kona- like Lance, I believe in reconnoissance of some sort, that way when I get to race day, I know what to expect and have already tackled a tougher course.

Kona will not be easy, but like Tim said- I've done everything in practice at a harder level, now all I have to do is show up and race my race. I will always be the first to tell you what I do in training because I know 98% of people won't do it- who would go out and run 26.5 miles in under 3 hours... except for the top Pros... who do you think I learned this from?? A few of the best and Tim is one of them....

"I do today what you won't, so tomorrow, I can do what you can't."

As for marathoning- it's about different things- Tim can tell you- Ironman is about Strength- being able to run strong after swimmming and biking, and 6:30-7min pace is "fast" for that.

Marathoning is a different kind of suffering- one I really can't put a label on- Marathoning is very, very difficult as it involves so many other tactics that you really CAN'T train for... Ironman- you basically ACT and marathoning, you REACT- to conditions and to others... it's the 800m on a whole different level...

Lucho said...

Jeff... whatever.

RunColo said...

Another analogy is the Skier to Snowboarder rift. I do both and last year split my time between the two.

I can't count how many times I have gotten onto the lift wearing my skies to hear another skier start bashing snowboarders to me.

What Snowboarding is to Skiing, Mountain Biking is to Road Cycling.

TBone 187PC said...

This is all so nauseating T! Wish I could respond but I am out the door to do a workout...How do these people find time to workout and launch blog turds.. I must be doing something wrong- btwn w/o's and happy hour! I got zero time.....
T-bone 187 Calie

Lucho said...

Most people have REAL jobs and can't fu*k around with training ;). I think blogs are meant to give people mental breaks during work hours. That's what I use for!
Happy hour sounds good to me! At one bar I worked at in the V.I. they had happy hour from 7:00-8:00AM. That was when the Andy Griffiths Show was on.. the bar would be lined up with people trying to drink their hangovers away to Barney Fife. Damn sailors..

Marco Coelho said...

Everything about doing a training run of up to your goal race predicted time on race day is right on. I learned this from the best in the sport (the best of the best, for that matter). The fact that Jeff was able to run as far as he did in the time he did is a testimate to his fitness right now. The other thing you have to remember is that he ran the entire thing aerobically (at least I hope so). On race day, I will not be surprised at all to see Jeff 2:54 or faster if the conditions are right and he can REALLY hurt the last hour. In fact, I would expect no less from one of the hardest working guys (pro or not) in the sport.

Lucho said...

Exactly Marco. Mark Allen-ology is very hard to dispute. He's the Yoda of the aerobic world.
I think Jeff's HR averaged 138? When I say he didn't break a sweat I meant it! I ran 2:55 at Kona as an age-grouper and Jeff is badder ass than I was for sure. You have clicked off a fast IM marathon too! I remember watching you fly at CDA.