Saturday, September 13, 2008

Saturday. Coffee + track. 18 miles.

am) With coffee in my veins the world is full of sunshine and puppy dogs. Bob joined me on the track today, and for the first time, I got feedback from an experienced runner that watched me run a workout. The workout:
13 miles done as: 5 mile warm-up with 2 X 200 at the end to get the pace and rhythm for the intervals.
8 X 800 meters with 400 meter (fast) recoveries. We went straight in to the 400's with no pauses.
Here are the 800/400 splits:
#1- 2:36/1:27
#5-2:36/ 1:28
Average 800 in 2:36 (5:12 pace).
Average 400 in 1:29 (5:56 pace).
For the first 4 intervals the pace felt quit relaxed and the 400 recoveries, although quick, were allowing me very effective recovery. I was more happy with this fact than feeling relaxed on the 800s! Towards the end the recovery 400's became more difficult. The recovery 400's were certainly the key and made this session what is was.
Having Bob watch me run and then give me feedback certainly helps me more than anything else in the last 2 years. I've never had objective guidance, it's all been books and people telling their thoughts after seeing what I have done on paper. Bob was able to watch me run and see how relaxed I am at 5:10 pace. We certainly see things differently- his thoughts are far removed from my own and this really is a good thing. I obviously need a different approach and the fact that we disagree is exactly what will get me to think outside my box. Uli's suggestions are similar to Bob's and I am slowly starting to understand their points. I'm fighting it simply because I am so entrenched in my ways but the shift is happening. I ran with out a HR monitor today and found myself not doubting or questioning what I was feeling.

pm) 5 mile recovery jogging. Legs feel good.


Der Kaiser said...

Whoa, tough training. I could do the 800s no problem. But with that kind of recovery...

Glad to hear there is someone else with similiar ideas who you tolerate. I felt a bit isolated here but being as opinionated as I can be if I believe in something, I digress.

Would you be willing to share Bob's views?


(Whilst I enjoy seeing what kind of music you listen to (the new Metallica is on my to-buy-list, did you consider?) I must admit that the music tool on your site is a bit of a pain as I listen to music while I "internet". I know I can stop it and probably that's only me but... Sorry my rambles.)

GZ said...

Interesting. This workout you did is a variation of the Yasso 800s ... but the way you did it with the speed of the recovery is harder. The basic premise of a Yasso 800s workout is that you do 10 x 800 at goal pace from marathon time in hours and minutes instead in minutes and seconds. In other words, if you wanted to run a 2:30 marathon, you'd run these 800s at two minutes and 30 seconds. The rest is supposed to be equal and active (and so in this example, 2:30). Supposedly a predictor workout (if you buy into such consideration).

In any case, a very solid workout - well done.

I have heard you make this reference though about not getting honest or critical or thought provoking feedback on a regular or a consistent basis - and that you welcome it. Got to ask: do you have a coach? Should you get one?

BRFOOT said...

GZ I think for the Yasso 800's you don't pick a pace and run it. I think you run 10x800 at whatever pace you can and that average is then converted from mins,secs to hr,mins. if that makes sense.

Tim, as I was reading this I was wonder what your HR was doing on the recoveries only to get to the bottom of the article to see you didn't wear your monitor. If you had to guess 10-15 bpm drop?

Lucho said...

Kaiser- With Tool people tend to either hate them or love them. I think their lyrics are great and the music is me. I run to almost anything as long as it inspires me. I am dying to get the new Metallica! I'll probably buy it off of i-tunes.
The 800's made this workout so much harder. As Bob pointed out I was able to run the 800's relatively slow and still get a great effort in because the recoveries were not complete. The rule of thumb for this first session (from Canova's book) is to run at LT and recover at slightly slower than AeT (marathon pace) then bring the two paces together to meet at marathon pace. An eventual progression for this workout- as it nears race specific pace- would be ~8-10 X 1 mile at race pace/ on 400 at 10" slower. Then finish with a long run of 15-18 miles at goal pace.
Bob just moved here from New York where he was on a club team and trained with several Somalian elite runners. I've only run with him a couple of times. He is a stay at home dad, 2:30 marathoner, and lives just down the street and has nearly unlimited amounts of time to train. So I have a feeling I'll be running much more with him! I've been training by myself for far too long. You'll be hearing more.
GZ and Brfoot- From what I understand the about the Yasso 800's you can run them either way. As a test or as a predictor. I used to think they were dumb.. but the Jack Daniels VDOT predictor chart puts them spot on accurate. McMillan's pace calculator is off though. Brfoot- I have a good sense of HR and I would put my HR for the first 4 800's at ~170-175/ recoveries were in the 160 range. The last 4 it was creeping up to 180 and the recoveries were probably in the 170-175 range. So, 10-15 drop to start then it dropped much less towards the end.

Der Kaiser said...


Actually, I did not talk about the band "Tool" but the music tool you use on your site (excuse my bad English...).

"An eventual progression for this workout- as it nears race specific pace- would be ~8-10 X 1 mile at race pace/ on 400 at 10" slower. Then finish with a long run of 15-18 miles at goal pace."

What would "goal pace" be?

I'm in fantastic spirits today as I finished 3rd at the Queens Half. Nothing better for your ego than a large race with a weak competition.


Lucho said...

Kaiser- Ahhhh, got it. Ya- isn't perfect.
Goal pace? Not sure yet. In 12 weeks I will be a completely different athlete. I am leaning towards just taking the day as it comes. Somewhere between 2:28 and 2:24 finish time would be nice.
What was your time at the 1/2?

Der Kaiser said...

How dare you ask my time! 1:16...

So it is 8*1mile at marathon pace plus 400 recovery and straight thereafter 16 miles of goal pace=also marathon pace?
I am confused now.

Lucho said...

Kaiser- I can see how my wording can be confusing- sorry.
The workouts should progress over the course of ~6-8 weeks. My 'starting point' would be the 8 X 800 that I just ran. Next week I hope to progress to something like- 8 X 1k at slightly slower pace (closer to goal marathon pace)on recovery intervals that also get closer to goal pace. Then the next week I would do maybe- 6 X 1200. Then the next week 6 X 1 mile... and so on. Eventually I would progress to ~8-10 X 1 mile at race pace/ on 400 at 10" slower than race pace.
THEN: my last long run may be another progression to a long run of 15-18 miles at goal pace. All of these workouts are examples to try to show the methodology of moving your fitness towards your goal by using Hudson's 'adaptive' method. You would basically train at paces that are on either side of goal pace- then bring the two together to 'meet' at goal pace in the last few weeks. It's a very well thought out and sensible methodology.
1:16 is a great effort! 3rd is a great placing, too.

Der Kaiser said...

Thanks Lucho. I was 2 mins off my PR but felt very strong mostly. The guys around me were 3+ mins. off their PRs so I better be happy. It was hilly, hat loads of corners and 75degr/90% humidity. :/

One guy I beat by a minute has done last year what I try to accomplish thsi year (again), Top100 at NYC marathon.

I understand what you were saying now. Why do you prefer your approach to - say - increasing continous distance running at marathon pace. E.g. start with 5 miles during your long run and peak at 16-18 as you said?


Lucho said...

The 'adaptive' method is just a different approach and I don't think it's necessarily better. I have tried the steady build in marathon pace mileage and this time around I think I need to change how I'm training. I do think the focus on running faster than goal pace is good for me because for 10 years I haven't done a focused period of fast running. For the Ironman my goal pace was always 6:30 per mile- hardly a real need to do 'fast' workouts! Developing my relative speed may be my problem in regards to not running faster than 2:30 (3 times). I still have a lot to learn about what works best for me for the marathon training. In order to do that I need to try different methods. Which is also why I appreciate honest feedback- it makes me think outside the box.
2:00 off your PR on a course that may have been 3:00 slow!? Nice. 75 degrees and 90% humidity is far from ideal conditions too. Sounds like you ran great!

GZ said...

All - good conversation.

Catching up ... back on the Yasso's or any "predictor" workout. You don't pick your pace ... but then again you do, don't you? You have a target ... you can go for that (and make it, exceed it, or fail) and the average "sort of" predicts what you can do. Of course, the big mix in this workout is your ability to translate that to 26 miles (do halfs are different!)

The Yasso's, as much as any predictor workout seem to make sense. Could Geb do 10 of these at 2:04 pace? Probably.

TL - doing 8 x a mile and then a long progression run ... WOW.

Lucho said...

The point of the predictor workout is to see what you can do. I would pick a goal pace for the first few then "race" the next 6-8 and get the average. It's a mix of both but you're right GZ, you can't run the first one at max speed, you need a realistic starting point or goal.
GZ- are you jerking my chain or did I miscommunicate again? The 8 X 1 mile and the long progression run would be ~1, even 2, weeks apart.

GZ said...

Oops. Probably not you miscommunicating but me misreading.